Then when I got into CNS, non-operational projects, I mean, basically there was ideas that Bob Heterick, Erv Blythe, and Mike Williams, who was one of the competing center directors, I think he's the guy who basically orchestrated the first Math Emporium. Theta Bowden was involved in that too. And so  they, that was really, I was felt very fortunate to be working with them. And I was able to, you know, sit in groups with them and have conversation, "Well, we could do this or we could do that." Bob Heterick in particular, had this idea about what he called a single system image, which was, in short, we've got all these different lumps of data scattered around in different places. Problem is we need a unified way of looking at that and working with it. And I had written some internal white papers and things about ways we might do that kind of stuff. It was really a scale of problem beyond what we were going to be able to do. Um, we didn't realize that at the outset, but that kind of became evident, and so we ended up kind of refocusing efforts in that realm to providing email capability to the entire population, not just, at that point. If you were in the VM system, you had email and people used that heavily. Students didn't have email. People used VM, had email. But the scale of the VM system wasn't such, you could give it to all the students. And so I worked on an early attempt to do client server email, which was basically, we ran a service on a UNIX machine. People ran code on their desktop. And because people did have computers by this time, and they would connect, run this thing to connect to the server. and they could send email and receive email. It was really pretty primitive. There was at that point there were the first internet, well it was the internet. There was this thing called BITNET. Basically that was a connection amongst universities. So that was the first kind of connection and that happened fairly in bits and drabs early on, When I was still in accounting, the BITNET thing merged. And a few people used it at first, there were some other things that ran over BITNET in addition to email. Like there was a thing called internet Relay Chat, which evolved to IRC as we know it. Basically, people all over the world hooked up to a VM systems saying, "Hi I'm in Germany," and "Hi I'm in Tennessee," or whatever. [laughs} and there wasn't a whole lot of else of substance going on. It was just like, wow, this is amazing which it was. But I didn't get too involved in that. But the email was very useful because people were sharing information like, "I can't get this to work," or "How do you do that?" or there's some code here and I can download it. I can get it via email by submitting the appropriate commands where it was somehow magically copied into chunks of data in an email message and sent off to me, much to the frustration of people who were trying to, other people trying to use the connection. because really you could max things out. Anyway, so email had been, was kind of, had  emerged as well. This is really great tool. I can't remember the name of the president of the institution who started it heavily, and I think it might have been Torgerson. In any event, whoever it was started using it at the president's level. And that meant that everybody needed to jump on board because they wanted to be able to communicate effectively with the president. So it had totally run through all of, you know, the administrative and academic levels of the institution. So this is a wonderful thing. Uh, meanwhile, Erv and Heterick and company had orchestrated the procurement of the, ROLM what was known as the ROLM CBX computerized branch exchange system, which was basically a phone system with a high-powered modem integrated into it that you could plug your, you know, little serial connection out the back of your computer into. All right, well now we have this effectively a local area network that everybody on campus can use. What are they going to use it for? [laughs] So that was part of the impetus of, well, let's get something that the students can use for email. We also set up a chat system called cosy C-O-S Y, which interestingly became the breeding ground for people who later on went on to become denizens of the internet chat realm at large. Just, you know, nothing negative. Just, you know, people who became notable. And people were running around like they were playing around with the ROLM system, figuring out what they could hack into. Like "Oh, what's this?" I mean, basically you like hook up to somebody's phone number which was there. You could do that and get their connect to their thing. And if there was something answering on the other end, what did what did it want to talk? [laughs] And there was a group of kids that we actually had, uh, administer the conferencing system, uh, which was useful because they kind of buffered between some of the more wilder members and, you know, kept things culturally in between the lines. Doing things this way was not necessarily my idea at the outset, I mean, Erv and Bob and company, they really understood not only the technology and how to work with things to advantage, they also understood how to work with groups of people, both in working with public perception, but also like the technical people. What were they interested in? How could you engage people in working together to accomplish significant things and feel good about that?