I was a UNIX system administrator, and two of my machines got hacked as part of this attack that hit computer science and us. That's how I fell into cybersecurity because it took us two months to recover from the attack. And Ron Jarrell and I said, "we don't want to do that again, let's figure out how they got in." We started looking and digging around, and most of the security books that we could find were cryptography books, and that wasn't what we were looking for. We found a few books that were talking about, UNIX security and network security, that type of stuff. And then literally out of the blue, we got an email from this outfit called the SANS Institute that they were advertising that they were holding their second conference up in Crystal City, in the Alexandria area. And, you know, I went to my, Ray Decker was my supervisor at the time, and I went to Ray and I said, "hey, I'd like to go to this conference." and it was a 400 buck registration fee. And I said, "you just need to cover the conference fee because I can stay with friends and family up there." And he said, "well, we don't have the money, sorry, you can't go." And we're looking at the list of speakers and they were the authors of the few books that we found, you know. And I was like, I got to go. And I was literally getting ready to, you know, pay for it myself. And another email came out from SANS just broad, broadcast, and they said, hey, we're looking for people to do a talk, and if you submit a proposal and it gets accepted, we'll waive the registration. Right. And, you know, Ron and I, we went, golly then we said, "we don't know anything about cybersecurity, so what can we propose?" And then Ron said, "well, I guess we could talk about what happened to us." And this is sometimes I said, you know, we're too stupid for our own good because we [laughs] didn't realize at the time that nobody didn't talk about how they got hacked. Because companies, they were afraid that if they mentioned how they got hacked and everybody would try to hack them when exactly the opposite would happen. So we submitted a proposal and talked about the incident for us and we got accepted. We did talk and Alan Paller, who was the founder of SANS, he said, "hey, that's a really good talk would you guys like to work on some stuff, projects with us?" And we said, "sure, let's learn some more" and that's where I am, that's how I wound up in SANS