I got hooked up with W. T. Reid there. He was kind of one of the, well, he was the most well known mathematician at the University of Oklahoma. There's actually a SIAM prize that's in his honor now.  So he kind of took me under his arm [laughs] And I think I had scored really well on the, the qualifying exam. And the story goes that I worked, one of the problems he had put on an exam for several years that other people hadn't worked so that kind of put me in his group at the University of Oklahoma, which was, you know, really great. And so, that's kind of why mathematics and stuff like that. At that point, even at that point, I really thought that probably the only thing I could really do is somehow, or rather get some teaching position in mathematics somewhere, would probably be the kind of job that I would probably want when I got out. But W.T. Reid, my thesis advisor, really talked to me about coupling, you know, the mathematics that I've been learning with something of interest to industry and business, and government agencies and stuff like that. Really, you know, take the analysis of stuff that we do in the mathematics, but, you know, apply it to problems that people wanted solved. So more of the research development kind of areas. Yeah, there was really no, there was no software being used, there was no programming being used through my days at Fort Hays State. Once I got to Oklahoma, they had more of a active computer science department. It was actually very new. So we would interact with them and that's where I first did any programming, and kind of stuff like that. But throughout, even up to the point where I got the Ph.D., I did very little programming. I would do it some, but, you know, mainly the mathematics I did was theoretical, you know, proven kind of stuff, and uh, so that's what I spent my time doing.